Lashley doing his first indy show since his WWE release

From bpapa on 5/8/08 9:59 AM

From what I've heard this shouldn't be an indication that Lashley will choose wrestling over MMA. He wasn't allowed to say publicly what he was going to be doing until his no-compete clause ended, and it just expired. I guess he could show up in TNA now if he wanted to. Personally though, if it was me, anything Lashley is doing in TNA is going to be a step down, money-wise, from what he did in WWE (1 million bucks in 2007). Also the things that drove him away from WWE, mainly politics and racism, are probably in TNA as well. I'd be super surprised if he shows up there. Even part time, the time taken out would interfere with his MMA training schedule.

From DaneBramage on 5/8/08 10:56 AM

It's never mentioned in the article that he'll wrestle either, sounds like it'll more likely just to do a promo for the crowd and a signing session, and maybe run interference to help a big face somewhere on the card.

From theone86 on 5/9/08 3:35 AM

Ummm...to the best of my knowledge TNA doesn't have bookers referring to black wrestlers by the "N" word. You're talking about the company that booked the first African American NWA World Champion, pushed Monty Brown almost all the way there, and has more prevalent black main event wrestlers than WWE has had ever.

From bpapa on 5/9/08 10:12 AM

TNA has had more prevalent black main event wrestlers, in 6 years, than WWE has had EVER? That's gotta be some kind of new math.

Whether or not Vince Russo is dumb enough to use the "n" word isn't the point, it's the fact that he's probably proven to be the most racially motivated writer in wrestling history. His public comments had WCW losing the Sonny Ono lawsuit, and has TNA in a tough spot with the Konnan suit. If Lashley is looking for a climate where race is not a part of the equation, than TNA is probably the wrong place for him.

From theone86 on 5/9/08 3:38 PM

Name two African American main event WWE wrestlers, excluding the Rock. Booker T, and he held a World Title once.

TNA has had Monty Brown and Ron Killings. The former was a World Title contender for a while, the latter held two World Titles and was the first African American NWA World Champion. AND WWE has about a 49 year head start on TNA.

I said it once and I'll say it again, Vince McMahon does not care about ethnic people. The main event on every brand is predominantly white, and has been for the past 55 years. Ever since Vince took over, almost every single ethnic wrestler has to work some type of gimmick that makes them look ridiculous. The sheer amount of ethnic based gimmicks that are in poor taste in WWE is staggering.

From SnoHo24 on 5/9/08 5:31 PM

Ron Simmons was the first African-American to hold the World Title when he was with WCW, which eventually merged with WWF and WWE was born

So you can include Ron Simmons in with Booker T for African-American World Title holders

From bpapa on 5/9/08 5:55 PM

If you want to include Monty Brown as a "main eventer" in TNA you'd have to include a hell of a lot more guys from WWE. Bad News Brown, Tony Atlas, Rocky Johnson, Ron Simmons, The Junkyard Dog, Kamala, Bobo Brazil, Ernie Ladd, Big Daddy V (as King Mabel) and many, many others are guys who had similar push to Monty Brown in TNA when you consider things like what qualifies a main eventer (to me even considering Brown as a Main Eventer in TNA is a joke, but if you want to do it you have to include a guy like Farooq who main evented a PPV in 1997, or Mabel in 95) or when you consider scope (Bad News Brown never main evented a PPV, but that was when WWE had only a few PPVs a year and not 12. He was however heavily pushed and in a lot of high-profile feuds that got high billing on PPV cards, for example against Jake Roberts). Ron Killings was a world champ because he was one of the few guys TNA had who they felt could be World champion. Ironically enough, that was probably because he was a former WWE superstar.

To say "Vince McMahon does not care about ethnic people" is kind of hard to justify unless you were in a coma in 2007 - which would surprise me since Bobby Lashley is the subject at hand here. Lashley was pushed TO THE MOON last year and was said on many occasions to be the guy Vince saw as the future along side John Cena. How could that be if Vince didn't care about blacks?

Vince has every black man doing some type of gimmick that makes them look ridiculous, yada yada yada. He's done that with all races, colors, and creeds, because he runs an entertainment company that has always been built on larger than life characters and that's what makes him money. It's not because he's a bigot. He's had plenty of Caucasians doing ethnic gimmicks too - the snotty Englishman, the Fighting Irishman, the Italian loverboy, the Polish Powerhouse, etc. To single out racially-based characters just because we're talking about blacks is unfair and not even really relevant.

If anything the thing is that there haven't been as many great black wrestlers. In the 80s, what black wrestlers should have been pushed ahead of Hogan and Savage? In the 90s, ahead of Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels? In the late 90s the Rock got a big push, not because he was only half black and was therefore less hated by Vince, but BECAUSE HE HAD THE TALENT TO WARRANT IT. Today you've got Shelton Benjamin who is a great worker with a hell of a physique, but the problem is he's not getting a better spot because of his mic skills. It has nothing to do with skin color. Also to say that WWE doesn't care about blacks is simply not true, when you consider that their roster is overstuffed with blacks right now, and it was recently reported that WWE wants to refocus their marketing efforts on blacks.

From JamesP on 5/9/08 9:40 PM

"Vince has every black man doing some type of gimmick that makes them look ridiculous, yada yada yada. He's done that with all races, colors, and creeds, because he runs an entertainment company that has always been built on larger than life characters and that's what makes him money."

OH LAWDY IT'S THE FAMED "IT'S SPORT ENTERTAINMENT" COP-OUT!!!!!

From JamesP on 5/9/08 9:45 PM

"Vince has every black man doing some type of gimmick that makes them look ridiculous, yada yada yada. He's done that with all races, colors, and creeds, because he runs an entertainment company that has always been built on larger than life characters and that's what makes him money."

OH LAWDY IT'S THE FAMED "IT'S SPORT ENTERTAINMENT" COP-OUT!!!!!

From JamesP on 5/9/08 9:48 PM

"Ironically enough, that was probably because he was a former WWE superstar."

It had been 2 years since Killings was with WWE, and that stint was forgotten anyway. I give credit to WWE when credit is due, but you seem to look for anything in TNA to rip apart, even good things

From theone86 on 5/9/08 11:47 PM

Bad News Brown was a jobber, never NEAR the main event. Rocky Johnson and Tony Atlas were primarily tag wrestlers. Ron Simmons NEVER made it above the mid card in WWE. the best he did was win the Tag Titles, and he never dominated the division for very long. I'm not counting WCW just because WWE bought it, I'm counting who got pushed to the main event in WWE. Junkyard Dog was a mid-carder, Kamala was a mid-carder, BDV was a mid-carder. Ernie Ladd was a high-carder at best, engaging in giant vs. giant fueds. Bobo Brazil is the only one on your list who could possibly come close, and he owes a lot of his success to James Dudley, not Vince Jr.

As for Monty Brown, he stayed in the high card his whole time in TNA, and had a couple of main event fueds. Almost every one of the wrestlers you listed wrestled primarily on the mid-card.

As for Killings getting a World Title because of being a former WWE wrestler, that's bull. He got the Title back in the days when being an ex-WWE guy was a bad thing in the TNA locker room. He never did anything of mention in WWE because they never got behind him. When he got to TNA he really established himself as a main eventer, and got the Title because of it. Believe me, NO ONE was playing up his WWE career back then.

Lashley got a good initial reaction, he got pushed, and when he really needed management to back him up they just let him die. Why didn't Lashley get a Cena-esque push? If management really liked Lashley we'd still be seeing him right now.

"He's had plenty of Caucasians doing ethnic gimmicks too - the snotty Englishman, the Fighting Irishman, the Italian loverboy, the Polish Powerhouse, etc. To single out racially-based characters just because we're talking about blacks is unfair and not even really relevant."

You're making my case for me right there. If Vince actually was sensitive to people's ethnic pride he wouldn't base 98% of his companies gimmicks on ethnic stereotypes.

Mic skills is a B.S. excuse. Bret Hart didn't have mic skills. Kane didn't have mic skills. Shelton Benjamin can do fine on the mic. Just because he's not the next Chris Jericho doesn't mean he's not main event material. Someone just doesn't like Shelton, and they tell us all that it's mic skills so we don't all get in an uproar over why he's not in the main event.

"it was recently reported that WWE wants to refocus their marketing efforts on blacks."

OK, so WWE wants black viewers because they see it as an untapped segment. That doesn't mean they care about black people, that means they care about their money. WWE wanted to tap into the Latino audience too, but that didn't stop them from playing up every bad Latin stereotype out there.

And I'm not saying Vince goes around thinking, "I'm going to bury black people today." I think it's something he doesn't think about, and as a result an issue that he's out of touch with. I think black people don't get ahead in WWE, and I think it's partly because they have their own little system of who gets pushed and who doesn't, and because they try their damndest to avoid any fair employment practices. I don't think Vince views himself as racist, and I don't think he intentionally buries black people, but that doesn't mean he doesn't bury black people anyways and it doesn't mean he's not a racist.

From jeff on 5/10/08 12:23 AM

You're making it sound like Vince hates blacks(even though I don't think you mean to). I'm black myself and I really don't mind the gimmicks like Cryme tyme because I in a way find them funny and entertaining. As for mic skills even though that excuse is B.S its true. Look at John Cena he can barely wrestle and yet he always finds himself in the main event.

Someone must not Charlie Haas either because he's as good as Shelton Benjamin and better than John Cena yet he's barely seen on RAW. Between those two Shelton is doing a better job. I think eventually they would have given Lashley the WWE title because Lashley was another version of Brock Lesnar.

I don't think that Vince is racist, but in my opinion Vince probably putting too many blacks or any other race as a main eventer(other than white) would ruin his business. I'm not saying this is the reason why Vince does this this it's just my opinion. Now personally I would love to see more blacks become a main eventer. Guys like Shelton Benjamin and Elijah Burke are good wrestlers, but aren't being used well. MVP looks like he's being upgraded into main event status. We'll see within the next year how MVP does.

From jeff on 5/10/08 12:26 AM

My bad I made a mistake what I mean to say was someone must not like Charlie Haas either.

From bpapa on 5/10/08 1:36 AM

@JamesP it's not a "cop out" if it's the real reason. It'd be a cop out if Vince was a racist who hated blacks. And hey, he might be. But nobody would know either way, unless you can somehow read minds.

@theone86 - Bad news was certainly not a jobber. He won the WrestleMania IV battle royal and worked major programs with Jake Roberts and Roddy Piper in addition to doing matches with Hogan. In fact, Brown claimed that the reason he left WWE was b/c he never got the title run he was promised. I don't think Vince was promising title runs to JOBBERS like Steve Lombardi or Duane Gill, so not sure how Brown would fit in with them.

You're talking about how JYD was a mid-carder, Kamala was a mid-carder, etc. etc. without thinking of the context as opposed to Monty Brown. Brown main-evented a handful of PPVs, but for three reasons. First, TNA is a small pond. Second, TNA has 12 PPVs a year, in the 80s there were at most 4. Finally, TNA likes to have multi-man matches in their main event. When Hulk Hogan is holding the title for 4 years w/o it getting stale you can see that there wasn't room for everybody to be a world champ. When you compare Brown's spot on the card with a JYD, it's almost apples to oranges.

Killings getting the TNA title b/c he was a former WWE wrester - that's "bull?" LOL, tell me another one. I'm not even going to list the TNA champions of years past, I could, but to sum up the only guy having held the belt w/o an established WWE run has been AJ Styles. Everybody knows that coming into TNA as a WWE guy gives you a ticket to the top, and anybody that disputes that is out of their mind.

Lashley did get a Cena-like push, and it was well documented that he was seen as the top guy going forward that wasn't named John Cena. If you don't believe me, get back issues of the Wrestling Observer Newsletter, then email Dave Meltzer and tell him he was wrong. Lashley's not working there because of the political climate, part of which was Michael Hayes and the N word - but let's be honest here, if Lashley really wanted to be a WWE Legend in the making he wouldn't have let that bother him. The WWE criss-crossing the country year round is a schedule that's not for everybody (an even tougher schedule for a top guy as Lashley was being groomed for), and I'd bet Lashley didn't want to do it.

Don't give me "sensitive" bullshit, WWE is an entertainment company and stereotypes are a big part of all forms of entertainment. If you don't like it I suggest just watching reality shows, half of which are people bitching to each other about racism (somehow I think that kind of argument is right up your alley). It's fucking pro wrestling dude.

A lot of people don't like Shelton, people in the WWE and even some newsletter writers. Personally, I think he's a fantastically gifted talent who works incredibly poorly as a heel due to the nature of his style. But at the same time, if you want to push him as a babyface it's hard because he's not entertaining. I really don't get how saying Shelton has bad mic skills is an "BS excuse" when he does indeed have bad mic skills.

As for whether Vince buries blacks intentionally or not, it's not true as I referenced earlier, the WWE internally right now is trying very hard to build their black audience. So, in short, you're wrong. You really should subscribe to something like the WO because you come off in these posts (at least to me, somebody who actually reads up on this stuff) as somebody just talking out of their ass.

From JamesP on 5/10/08 8:51 AM

Dammit bpapa, read what he was saying. He said that Ron Killings was around in the beginning when people in the locker room thought it was bad to have ex-WWE guys dominating everything. TNA didn't really start having multi-man main events until 2006. And just because TNA's smaller doesn't mean shit. They could've pushed other people as well instead of him. Monty Brown did have highly-featured main event storylines. He cost DDP the NWA Title back in 2004, feuded with Christian Cage right before he won the NWA Title, and had a big storyline about whether or not he'd join Jeff Jarret.

From theone86 on 5/10/08 8:49 PM

"You're making it sound like Vince hates blacks(even though I don't think you mean to)"

Then you're not really paying attention to what I'm saying. I'm saying prejudice isn't as simple a matter as hating and not hating. I'm saying that Vince is prejudiced, even if he doesn't try to be in his mind.

"I'm black myself and I really don't mind the gimmicks like Cryme tyme because I in a way find them funny and entertaining."

Some black people don't mind the use of the "N" word, does that make it right for me to use that word in front of all black people? Of course not. Black people liking Cryme Tyme is not the point, the point is that it's degrading and it presents a very narrow view of black people to an audience that has very little contact with them. Sure, we can go around saying we believe in equality and so forth, but if we never learn to look at African Americans in any way besides what is presented on WWE TV we still perpetuate a society that handicaps minorities.

Mic skills is B.S. You don't need mic skills to be in the main event. It's NOT a valid reason.

"Someone must not Charlie Haas either because he's as good as Shelton Benjamin and better than John Cena yet he's barely seen on RAW. Between those two Shelton is doing a better job."

Yeah, but how many people of the same race as Charlie have been Champions or in the main event? Just about 99%. I don't care what you say, that's not a ratio that is representative of talent levels in each group. Besides, no one's saying people are thinking to themselves, "let's bury black people and push white people." It's not as simple as that. I'm saying that there's institutionalized racism present in WWE and they can get away with it because there's no set standard to gauge credentials, and no oversight.

Bad News was a jobber to the stars. He never ran in any prolonged main event fued.

"When Hulk Hogan is holding the title for 4 years w/o it getting stale you can see that there wasn't room for everybody to be a world champ."

I'm sorry, did you say WITHOUT getting stale? Sure, he was bringing in all the mark money, but he was most certainly stale by his fourth year.

As for TNA being a small pond, they're no slouches. There are plenty of wrestler out there who would kill to get a shot in TNA. Regardless of PPV buys, Monty Brown worked main event programs with Jeff Jarrett, DDP, Sting, Samoa Joe, and Christian Cage. He was part of Planet Jarrett, which basically dominated the main event and high card, and he never dropped to mid card status. PPV's aside, he was pushed as main event talent.

OK, so Raven and Rhino are ex-WWE talent just because they had short stints in WWE? JJ is ex-WWE talent just because he was at the top of WWE's mid-card for a while? They didn't have main event talent that had never wrestled in WWE before, they had to use ex-WWE talent to establish their own. You can't sit there and criticise people for having been in a lot of promotions over the years, and you can't say they don't deserve to be in the main event just because they wrestled in WWE at one point in time. Ron Killings got over on his own, he was WAY over with the audience, and none of it was due to his WWE stint. THAT'S why they gave him the Title.

If he wanted to be a legend he wouldn't have let flagratn racism by his superiors bother him? That's the most insensitive remark I have ever heard. You're justifying those people who were racists by trying to make Lashley look bad for getting out of a work climate where he was uncomfortable due to racism. Frankly, I think you're a bigger biggot than Vince himself.

Sensitive bullshit? Trying to not offend people is bullshit? trying to create a better environment for people is bullshit? That's a ridiculous opinion. I don't care if it's pro wrestling or not. Why does wrestling get a free pass? Why can wrestling be offensive and not anything else? Why aren't people marching on WWE headquarters demanding Hayes be fired like they did when that shock jock made his insensitive comments? Pull your head out of your ass, dude. Being sensitive to other people's struggles is not a bad thing, trying to help disenfranchised people is not a bad thing.

Frankly, I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's obvious that you're just stuck in your ways and don't want to face hard truths like the fact that racism is still VERY prevalent in our society because it threatens you. I don't continue to post because I care about your opinion, I continue to post because I care about having my opinion heard by others. I will continue to represent my opinion to the best of my power, and I think anyone who looks at this objectively will see the truth in what I'm saying. It's obvious you don't want to look at things objectively, and therefore I'm not going to waste my time on you. That doesn't mean I won't be there to offer a counter to everything you say, because I feel sorry for anyone who only has the option to read your opinion without being presented with an opposing one.

I never said WWE intentionally buries blacks, I said they create an environment where they can justify burying anyone they please, and as such it does not seem as big of a deal when African Americans don't get equal treatment. I don't care if they're trying to build their black audience, that doesn't mean they're sensitive to their plight. P.T. Barnum used to refer to his customers as suckers, and admit that he was making money by scamming them. You don't have to care about your customers to care about their money.

From JamesP on 5/10/08 10:19 PM

I agree with theone86. I myself completely forgot about Killing's WWF stint until I read about it on his OWW profile. To say that Killings only won the title because he was an ex-WWE guy is incredibly asinine because very few people even remember/knew that he even was in WWF as K-Kwik. Him and Road Dogg formed a team in WWF in September 2000 that was barely seen on WWF programming, best known for a skit involving Edge & Christian, and disbanded within a month because of Road Dogg's release. Killings fizzled out afterwards.

From bpapa on 5/11/08 12:27 AM

I have no idea what theone86 is ranting and raving about anymore. I said originally TNA likely had a climate similar to the one Lashley was trying to get away from in WWE. We already know TNA is political and that Dutch Mantell has been accused of racism in the past, and that Vince Russo has admitted in the past that he has booked to stereotypes and it was even evidence in a court of law. That's what I originally said, and theone86 is now talking about whether or not Hulk Hogan was stale in 1988 or if Bad News Brown was a jobber or not. Whatever dude, you're skirting away from the main point. I know you like to bash WWE at every turn, but you're simply wrong in this case.

From jeff on 5/11/08 1:03 AM

Dude you're wrong. Sure the WWE hasn't had a black wrestler as a WWE or World Heavyweight champion, but at least they use them. All the blacks in the WWE are being used. Elijah Burke may not be their regularly, but we've seen him more regularly than Charlie Haas, Snitsky, and other white wrestlers. You keep defending TNA yet TNA hasn't had a black champion for a long time.

From JamesP on 5/11/08 1:24 AM

And I know you like to bash TNA at very turn. I thought it was a good decision for Konnan to leave TNA for racism issues. You said that Lashley should've just sucked it up and dealt with the racism, but I'm sure that if TNA was the company in question, you wouldn't be saying that. Just saying.