From 92tombstone92 on 8/11/08 2:16 PM

Might i remind you these are my opinions

From DoubleL on 8/11/08 3:56 PM

Ok, I know these are your opinions and you?re entitled to them.

I believe that Hogan and Flair are in the Hall of Fame because they deserve to be, Yeah Hogan was limited in his matches and didn't provide the most technical moves but he did show entertainment value to the crowd and that?s what was so appealing about him. The man must have been doing something right to have lasted this long in pro-wrestling. I believe he deserved to be in the Hall of Fame with all the rest of the wrestlers.

Flair, I use to despise the man when I was younger and always wanted to see the man lose in his matches. I was more into the babyfaces when I was younger, huge Hulkamaniac and wanted to see Flair get beat. As I grew older I started to view matches on what kind of stories they told and after seeing the heels cheat to win I thought that was a better entertainment than seeing them lose fairly to the babyface. It was humorous in away to see Flair get dubbed in his matches when he tried to cheat to win and yeah he did win he title 16 times and lost is 16 times but the man only won one WWE world title, the rest were NWA/ WCW title. Flair's best matches weren't in the WWE it was in the NWA/ WCW so even though he showcase his best rivalries and matches in the WWE he still deserves to be in the hall of fame for his professionalism, love of the business and work ethic, not to mention he is the greatest.

Bret Hart, I do agree that he wasn't the best there was, best there is or the best there ever will be. That line was a Crock of sh*t, but his fans loved it even though it was a BIG stretch! The man was a good technician, his promos were not that great, and he did more whining than talking so I couldn?t really say he would be in my top 10 of greatest wrestlers. My favorite matches of his would be Summerslam of 91' where he won his 1st Intercontinental title from Mr. Perfect, great match but I just couldn't stand when he was WWE World Champion, the man grew cocky and never wanted to do anything the business had planned. He was a whining bitch and that the main reason I couldn't stand him. I did enjoy seeing Shawn Michaels Super kick that man back into his wheel chair during raw! lol! That shit was a "Holy Sh*t" moment! But, even as I bite my teeth and say this, Bret hart does deserve just for his technical work in the ring and his long career in the WWE.

From 92tombstone92 on 8/11/08 5:12 PM

I don't just like babyfaces i'm actually more of a fan of heels i loved seeing Orton almost retiring several superstars with just one move. Also, one of my favorite feuds has been the Edge/Foley feud which lead up to there Hardcore match at Wrestlemania 22. And i know Flair only one World Title in the WWE hence why i just said world titles instead of the WWE world title.

From theminister on 8/11/08 5:32 PM

Wow there needs to be a Wrestling History 101 class.

You guys know nothing about Bret Hart. It's true that he was not "the best there is was not the best there was and was not the best there ever will be." But is Triple H really the "King of Kings" or was Curt Hennig really "perfect"? Of course not. It's a gimmick, and so was "the best there is was not the best there was and was not the best there ever will be." To say "he was carried in 3/4 of his matches," is utter nonsense. He was one of the best wrestlers in the business during his era. He wrestled classics against Davey Boy, HBK, Flair, Undertaker, Owen Hart, Stone Cold and Jerry Lawler. He carried guys like Diesel (Kevin Nash) and Yokozuna to decent matches. He was not a great promo guy but he did it in the ring as well as anyone.

As for Hogan, again you have no idea about his impact on the business. If you lived in the 80's you know that he was indeed entertaining. In fact he was "the most electrifying man in sports entertainment" before the Rock was. He is the most influential wrestler in the history of wrestling, bar none. To compare Hogan to Cena is an insult. Cena hasn't done anything yet. Hogan helped make a local wrestling promotion into a worldwide wrestling monopoly. People let's get our history straight. We still be watching our local territory if not for Hulk Hogan.

As for Flair, he is simply the greatest there ever was. He carried more stiffs to great matches than anyone on the planet. Flair spent his whole career putting guys over and makings guys who were average at best look like stars. Flair's 16 world titles are a testament to his greatness.

If you only saw the tail ends of these guys careers then you missed out and really don't know what your talking about. Opinion is one thing, but let's learn our historical facts before we judge wrestlers like Hart, Flair, and Hogan.

From bpapa on 8/11/08 6:21 PM

I mean, obviously the three guys listed should be in the WWE Hall of Fame. I mean, if it's supposed to just be based on WWE Accomplishments there are very few that should get in before Hart and Hogan.

Since the WWE has taken a more "entire world of wrestling" HoF slant since WCW shut down, obviously Flair should be in there too.

Also I think you've lost your mind. Ric Flair was not entertaining? Hogan had "title shots handed to him" in a sport that is scripted? Bret Hart was carried in 3/4 of his matches? WTF?

From 92tombstone92 on 8/11/08 7:18 PM

I didn't say none of these guys shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame they were good at what they did just I think others are better and its just my opinion. To me Bret Hart was the cockiest superstar ever and he didn't respect his fans honestly when he got inducted he didn't even show up. To me he was carried in most of his matches esp with some that you mentioned theminister like HBK, Flair, and Taker. To me Hogan wasn't entertaining along with Flair. And Flair is no where close to being the greatest i say he's in the top 10 but he's not the greatest.

From MarSolo on 8/11/08 7:45 PM

"To me Bret Hart was the cockiest superstar ever and he didn't respect his fans honestly when he got inducted he didn't even show up."

You just described Shawn Michaels to the letter. The same guy who never actually lost a title through a normal circumstance unless it was to one of his buddies. The guy that screwed the fans out of another classic Hart/Michaels match because he didn't want to lay down for Bret. And yet, Michaels still put on classics that people still talk about today, and one day will be inducted for the memories he made.

Bret did show up to the Hall of Fame ceremony, he just didn't show up to Wrestlemania 22, and in all honesty, he didn't need to. To compare Bret to either Batista or JBL is not only insulting to Bret Hart, but to his father Stu and anyone trained by him in the Hart Dungeon.

Hogan, on the other hand, basically put wrestling on the map, for years he was the face of wrestling and besides the Rock, is the only recognizable face to anyone outside of the wrestling world. Sure, he may have been one of the biggest political backstabbers in the wrestling world, but wrestling wouldn't be at the status it is now if not for Hogan.

Flair? That man basically held the NWA together while Hogan and the WWE was on the rise. He was the guy that the NWA needed a whole lot more than Flair needed the NWA. He was a constant professional in the ways that Hogan only wished he could be considered. He helped put over so many guys in the business it would be a pain in the ass to name them all. He was even willing to put his personal issues with Foley aside in order for them to work a program with one another.

But something tells me I'm wasting my time here, you must be one of those fans who probably think Triple H should have been the very first person inducted into the Hall of Fame and the only good thing about current WWE.

From FLCchampRUSH on 8/11/08 9:09 PM

Man, I guess I missed my Buzz Killington moment on this post, huh? Anyhoo, as an elder statesman here on Wrestlingmarks.com (in age, not in experience) I feel the need to add my 2 cents as well... To everyone who thinks Hogan was a "behind the scenes bully" need to do some behind the scenes research. The only guy Hogan gave a free ride to was Ed Leslie bka Brutus "The Barber" Beefcake. I'm 80 pages deep in2 a book called "World Wrestling Insanity" and recently finished a book by the "Get In the Ring" radio show guys. The one by the GiR guys do an ENTIRE chapter on the subject of was Hogan a "bad" guy behind the scenes or not. The ONLY person who had a negative remark about Hogan was Terry Funk, and even then it wasn't about backstage politics, it was about his work. Hogan worked and learned from most of the best, and some of the most humble guys in wrestling. The only person who has title beef with Hogan is Bret Hart, and, seeing how that played, it was for the better... Basically, Hogan was capable of being a better "technically sound" wrestler, but, in the 80's, ALL we wanted from out wrestlers was for them to be superhuman. Hogan appeased, met, and exceeded that need.

Flair, his glory matches prior to my recollection. But, like Trips, I am a student of the game, and did a lot of reading and watching of old footage. Flair, like theminister and bpapa said be4 me, WAS the NWA when Hogan and WWF were running wild. While Hogan and crew were selling 10 and 15,000 seat arenas in the East and Midwest, Flair and the Horsemen were doing 20k throughout the South, and 100k in Japan. Some of the greatest matches EVER happened between Flair and a host of competitors including Dusty Rhodes, Ricky Steamboat, Harley Race, Magnum TA, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Bret Hart didn't have to be the best talker in the 80's. Hell, Shawn Michaels wasn't a great talker in the 80's, either. Hogan wasn't a great talker in the late 70's/early 1980. But, Bret has ALWAYS been a great wrestler. Nepotism aside while he was in Stampede (Stu's promotion in Calgary), he put on great matches there, TOO. To say he was carried in 3/4 of his matches means that YOU never watched Bret Hart's matches. Screw the Montreal show. Screw his matches with Austin. Go back and watch Hart vs Perfect, watch Hart vs Benoit, watch Hart vs Hart, watch Hart vs Smith, watch Hart vs ANYBODY, while in his prime, of course, and discover where the technical wrestlers you idolize today got there inspiration from.

From theminister on 8/11/08 9:40 PM

It's nice to read the comments of those who appreciate the historical significance of Flair & Hogan and the wrestling ability of Hart. I was beginning to think that the only people on this site were kids who only saw Saggy Evolution Flair, Feather Boa NWO Hollywood Hogan and Post Montreal Screwjob WCW Hart.

From FLCchampRUSH on 8/11/08 10:07 PM

Hey, sometimes I feel like I have to rep for the 80's Babies on this site.

From 92tombstone92 on 8/11/08 11:17 PM

yes i am a kid well technically a teenager and i have videos adn i go on to youtube and what not and i've see non saggy Flair or non Boa Hogan and I've seen matches of Hart before the screwjob. I'm not a hater of these three i'm just stating my opinions of them. Have they done great in the buisness yes, do i think people give them to much credit yes, do i think they were entertaining no. I actually love 80's 90's wrestling i watch a lot of it. I do believe each and everyone wrestler ever in the buisness has there ups and downs and some i think have more downs its just my opinion.

From theone86 on 8/12/08 7:34 AM

Frankly, I think the latter half of Hogan's career is the better half. Yes, he made the biggest impact in WWE. Yes, he changed the scope of wrestling in the 80's, but why? It certainly wasn't because he knew how to work. I challenge anyone to show me a WWE Hogan match from before he went to WCW that has anything better than a passable work from him. The reason he was so big was because of his image. It was the all-American gimmick, the ridiculously over-the-top promos that were filled with the never give up attitude, the underdog role, and hell, maybe even the general aura of the period. Did he become the biggest draw ever in pro wrestling? Yes, but I'd probably give more credit to Vince McMahon than to Hulk himself. I'm not Vince's biggest fan, but I truly believe that it was his marketing, and not Hulk's in-ring accomplishments, that turned Hulkamania into the sensation it was.

I liked Hulk's post-mania career. He had some of his best matches and fueds after that era. I think it just proves that it wasn't that he COULDN'T work but that he DIDN'T work during Hulkamania. I loved his WCW work against Savage, Luger, Giant, and Goldberg. His match at WMX8 against Rock is one of my favorite Mania matches. I loved his fued with Triple H and Vince after that, and his matches in AWA and New Japan are good, too.

You can say what you want about his impact on the business, but could you seriously stand there and say that he deserved to get into the Hall of Fame on workrate alone?

From FLCchampRUSH on 8/12/08 12:17 PM

Yes, I will stand behind Hulk on his workrate, alone. All we the fans ever really saw of Hogan was his WWF/E-WCW career. We, who weren't able, born, or lucky enough, never saw Hogan's Japan work with Antono Inoki, we never saw his work in AWA, we never saw his work in Mid-South with Jerry Lawler. So, if you ever get the opportunity to check out old tapes of Hogan in those settings, do so. Then rate his work.

From theminister on 8/12/08 5:49 PM

tombstone, video can do a lot of things but it doesn't always tell the whole story. Video cannot recreate the arena buzz, the backstory, or the impact that these guys had on their fans when they were in their prime. Those of us who lived through Hogan, Flair and Hart in their prime know their importance, their skill and their impact on the business. Your opinions stated in the initial blog prove that simply watching a DVD or youtube cannot give you true historical perspective.

From theone86 on 8/12/08 9:42 PM

FLC, that's exactly my point. I've seen his AWA stuff and his New Japan stuff, and it's good, but it's not the reason he's in the HoF. The reason is Hulkamania and the reason that was so big was McMahon.

Had it not been for the gimmick and had Hulk have had to work to get ahead like most other wrestler he might very well have become one of the greatest workers in history, but let's face it, he didn't have to work. He's the original 5 moves guy, he just got worked over for entire matches.

And his work outside of WWE included, he's not the greatest worker in the biz. Yes, he can be a very good worker when he tries, but he's not on the same level as, say, a Shawn Michaels or a Chris Jericho, or a Ricky Steamboat if you want to go for a comparison of someone closer to his era.

From FLCchampRUSH on 8/13/08 9:21 PM

I agree that he's no Ricky Steamboat... or HBK... or Jericho... hell, I'm pretty much at a loss here... Just kidding! Nah, I know his work wasn't what got him in the HoF, but, being an old school Hulkamaniac, I take offense to people who blast off on Hogan because of his "lack" of in-ring prowess. No, he's not the most technically sound, but, he's not a pile of dog shit in the ring, either. People blame him and Cena for being charasmatic and not as technically sound as some of their contemporaries. But, what we as fans need to realize is that people like Hogan and Cena and Warrior (sadly, I had to mention him) and the such to help further storylines and add to the entertainment value of the product.

From 92tombstone92 on 8/13/08 10:55 PM

i'm not a hater of Hogan but i'm not a fan either and i'm not blasting him off i'm just stating my opinion. I don't think he was entertaining but i do agree he was amazing at what he did.

From theone86 on 8/14/08 12:13 PM

Well, my perspective on the whole thing is that without cool looking athletic moves and good works all the critics out there are right, wrestling is hypermasculinized violence. A big reason I don't like Cena or Hogan or Warrior is that they always cut these bulging vein, never die, over the top promos and then go out and deliver the most generic match possible, which always seems to consist of the most basic moves played up to look like a painful finisher. And they always win the match by making a huge comeback and making an over-exaggerated rage face, not to mention that in their prime they were (or are) a great deal larger than even other athletes who work out on a regular basis. To me that's just over-sensationalized hypermasculinity, and it just plays into the whole tired ideals of hegemonic masculinity.

Now I'm not saying that wrestling neccessarily prmotes these ideals, but I do think it should be done in a creative and tasteful way, I think with these archetypes it's anything but.

As far as Hogan's in-ring work, I have never seen anything of his in WWE before he left for WCW that I liked. He just didn't work during Hulkamania, and I don't think there's too much dispute to that. As far as Cena goes, it's the same thing. You know these people can work because you've seen it before, but at the height of thier popularity they have lousy workrates. I don't think it's their fault, I'm almost positive someone backstage is pulling thier strings, but that doesn't make it any easier for me to watch.

As far as Warrior goes, I think the man is udder trash. He's the pinnacle of hypermasculinity from his adrenaline charged ring performances that typically have no work whatsoever to his hate-filled blogs and biggoted rants. If you want to know what I think is so bad about hypermasculinized performances, you need look no further than this man. Of course he's an extreme example, but I think it's detremental when the values that he bases these extreme beliefs on gain a widespread acceptance.

Frankly, I don't see what exactly these performances add. I don't see any skill in Cena gritting his teeth every week and cutting a promo about never giving up and never surrendering. I don't see any skill in Hogan doing the same Hulk-up routine week after week, a routine that just about anyone could re-create. As far as furthering the storylines, how do they do that? You mention entertainment value, what is the entertainment value? I just don't see it.

From FLCchampRUSH on 8/14/08 3:10 PM

If this biz was divided up between workers and talkers, talkers would probably get the higher ratings. Not saying that the workers would absolutely suck, but, trash talking is sometimes MORE entertaining than the actual ring work. Case in point: Santino Marella... more entertaining as a Russian shoot fighter in OVW or as a bumbling Italian giggalo in WWE? It's not that talkers are better workers, its that this isn't 1950 anymore. In the 50's, a great shooter like Lou Thesz was the prototype for the perfect worker. Wasn't as charasmatic as a Gorgeous George, but he was what the FANS wanted. A no nonsense shooter who had a face that could and did sell EVERYTHING. Vince took this same concept and magnified it. He wants his superstars HUGE. Huge personality, huge physically, huge period. The Rock, box office wise, is his greatest athlete, and he could do a lot in the ring. But, this is the same guy who was getting booed out of arenas as happy-go-lucky Rocky Maivia. It wasn't until he became a TALKER that fans hated to love him and loved to hate him. His move set simplified as he became a bigger star. He started doing Superman comebacks. But, does that disqualify him as a worker?

From theminister on 8/14/08 4:08 PM

Well said FLC. You absolutely nailed it. Another example is Dusty Rhodes. He was a good worker, nothing special. But he could talk people into the arena with his promos. That made him an All Time Superstar. Wrestling is not just about ringwork. It's about advancing storylines, getting fans excited enough to buy PPV's and ultimately entertaining people.

Ringwork and workrate is such a subjective thing. The bottomline is most wrestlers use very limited movesets in most matches. They all have their pet moves. Stone Cold was popular as anything but the reality is he did the same basic stuff everytime out. How many of Triple H's matches does he do a kick to the Gut and pedigree. Can you say, "All of Them!" Most of the big stars (Cena, Edge, Undertaker, Batista, Trips, HBK etc) do the same schtick all the time. Maybe you like one guys schtick and hate another guy's schtick, that's fine. But clearly enough people loved Hogan and Cena's routine to make them the face of the company for a significant period of time.